Late night post
You will have to forgive the tone of this post. It’s late, I’m tired and generally in a tempremental mood.
Recently I’ve found myself at odds, again, with a poster over at Gates of Vienna who goes by the name of Zerosumgame. Sero has made it abundantly clear, at least as far as I can tell, that he thinks all “europeans” are jew haters who would murder his people at the first chance they got. There are a few others who agree with him too, which I find vaguely depressing.
The truth of the matter is that, yes, there is a lot of anti-semetism in europe and, yes, a lot of it does come from the native population. But the vast majority of it coems from immigrant muslims, not the locals, and is encouraged by a clique that has completely captured the institutions of government and rendered them largely impotent. You see, Zero is an american and, as such, is used to a country where the state is seen by the majority as something to be minimised wherever possible, and controlled at the voting booth everywhere else. They even elect dog-catchers in some districts, and presumably they can vote them out again if the strays become too much of a menace. In short, the US distrusts its government.
That isn’t the case over here. For the last 60 or more years most people in western europe have been taught that the state will solve all their ills. There’s an ingrained, not trust, exactly, as that implies choice, but something like trust, in the apparatus of the state. Europe, by and large, trusts (there’s that word again) the government to do the right thing, despite not trusting individual politicians or parties any further than they can comfortably spit them. This varies from country to country, and from county to county, but it holds true to a greater or lesser degree everywhere.
As people have said, Europe appears to be in a deep and distressing slumber as the world falls apart around it. The sleep is one of naive trust in the state to protect us, a trust that is now starting to finally be eroded. The fact that “europeans” haven’t reacted to the incoming threat of Islam is that, until very recently, the state was trusted to deal with the problem. It is spectacularly failing to do so, and people are starting to realise this.
So, to those americans - and those closer to home who live in freer nations - I say this: rather than criticise “europeans” as a mass for not reacting, instead start pointing out the failures of the state to us. Instead of simply haranging us for not throwing the muslims out, ask us why we tolerate a state that doesn’t do our will. This is, to use one of those horrible neologistic phrases, a constructive dialogue; it allows people to think through what you’re arguing instead of forcing them in to a position where they have to react against, or submit to, your ideas - a position many in Europe already find themselves vis-á-vis Islam.
Argue with the comparison if you like, but I think it’s apt. A demos cannot be enforced, and you cannot browbeat people in to freedom, because they will try to fight back and, in being forced to fight against ideas of freedom, they will slowly be pushed in to the embrace of slavery. If Europe is to be lost, as many are so pessimistically predicting, then at least let it be lost fighting the true enemy rather than being forced in to the false war of ideas.
Gee Archonix, you were begging for a response from me, weren’t you?
Well, let me get this in before Yom Kippur begins (I’m not terribly observant anymore, but I still sign off the Internet for this Holiday)….
“Sero has made it abundantly clear, at least as far as I can tell, that he thinks all “europeans” are jew haters who would murder his people at the first chance they got. There are a few others who agree with him too, which I find vaguely depressing.”
Not all, but a majority. Polls done by the EU itself has shown that Europeans consider Israel the greatest threat to world peace. It’s crime? Defending itself against psychotic islamonazis who admire Hitler as a prophet equal to Mohammed and wish to finish his work. Europe loves Jews when we are dead. But when we try to defend ourselves, most Europeans become outraged. How DARE the lowly Jews defend themselves? Don’t they know that they are supposed to lay down and die when WE want them to die? Europe got used to that for 1800 years. Not any more. Get over it.
Then you said:
“The truth of the matter is that, yes, there is a lot of anti-semetism in europe and, yes, a lot of it does come from the native population. But the vast majority of it coems from immigrant muslims, not the locals, and is encouraged by a clique that has completely captured the institutions of government and rendered them largely impotent.”
The violence may be conducted by your local Islamonazis, but by the silence of the media and passivity of the Authorities, it clearly is CONDONED AND SUPPORTED by them.
As for the “clique” you speak of — well, if this desire to persecute Jews and drive them from Europe is not the will of the people, then where are THEIR protests? Isn’t it interesting how Europeans will “go to the barricades” over the pensions or over some stupid labor law, but do nothing while the hatred of Naziism once again rises to destroy what is left of your continent?
Then you said:
“That isn’t the case over here. For the last 60 or more years most people in western europe have been taught that the state will solve all their ills. There’s an ingrained, not trust, exactly, as that implies choice, but something like trust, in the apparatus of the state. Europe, by and large, trusts (there’s that word again) the government to do the right thing, ”
If the Europeans (especially the French) trust the government to do the right thing, why are they often protesting and going to the barricades? And again, if the goal of the EU brueaucracy is to destroy Israel and the Jews (and it is, as most EU bureaucrats, if you got a couple of drinks in them, would admit they’d wish Hitler had finished the job of wiping out the Jews and now hope Iran will finish it), and the great unwashed European masses say nothing in response, then I think it is safe to assume that this is the will of the average European as well. Europe has not changed much in 65 years since the Shoah, when MILLIONS of Europeans helped round up and murder Jews or knew of it and did nothing.
You don’t like the fact that Europe is an incorrigible, irrevocable hotbed of Naziism? Do something about it. Don’t blame the Jews for pointing it out.
October 1st, 2006 at 9:39 pmGee Archonix, you were begging for a response from me, weren’t you?
Not really, but somehow they sort of turn up.
Polls done by the EU itself
Don’t make the mistake of trusting EU polls.
I already agree that the media and the authorities are passively condoning the violence, but you seem to have missed my central point: Europe has lived under various stripes of coailism and communism for anything up to a century, depending on where you look, and generally at least for the last 60 or so years. People here have a very strong (and misplaced) trust in the state to look after their needs, and that trust is the reason people aren’t yet protesting in a big way, as they naively assume that the state will save them now.
Try to listen to this: the state and the government are two different things in the mind of the “average european”. The state is a nebulous ideal of enlightenment and brilliantly selfless administration of the affairs of the country, whilst the actual government is a mass of corruption and putrid nastiness that’s always out to get the little guy. That’s how people see things over here. They assume that the state will do something but they disassociate that state from the actual government of the day.
Now, have I once blamed jews for pointing this out? No. Have I blamed jews for any of the problems we have over here? No. In fact, as I’ve already mentioned, I agree with nearly all your points. My disagreement is with what, on your part at least,amounts to a mild form of racism which is implicit in your assumption that all europeans are alike and that they’re all out to get you. And since you bring up world war 2, I have to point out that you dare committing a grave injustice when you ignore the millions who actively fought the nazis, many of whom went on to share the fate of those jews they tried to save.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, you can sit over there and harp about this all you like, but you dont’ live here. You get all yoru information through heavilly biased sources and then you’re further filtering them through your own mistrust, so I’m not surprised when you see nothing but jew hating over here. It isn’t how it is, so back off.
And enjoy your break.
October 1st, 2006 at 9:59 pmArchonix:
“And since you bring up world war 2, I have to point out that you dare committing a grave injustice when you ignore the millions who actively fought the nazis, many of whom went on to share the fate of those jews they tried to save.”
In most countries, even the anti-Nazis did nothing to save Jews. The Free Poles (Anders Army) was chock full of old-fashioned Polish anti-semites who thought the “Christkillers” were getting their due.
It was not only possible in Europe to be anti-Nazi and favor their extermination of the Jews, in most of Europe, it was the norm. Europe fought the Nazis IN SPITE OF the Nazi extermination of Jews, not because of it.
October 1st, 2006 at 10:06 pmI believe history bears me out when I tell you that you’re talking out of your arse. Now I can’t deny that there were a lot of anti-semites around, and definitely not all on the nazi side but, and this is a fact, they were the minority. It certainly wasn’t the norm, as you’d paint it.
October 1st, 2006 at 11:11 pmGraham,
You cannot hope to defeat the Islamofascists if you will not face up to the Jew-hatred of your NON-ISLAMIC fellow Europeans.
Anti-semitism is the tool that the Islamofascists have given Europe to allow it to kill itself. Europe has used Jew-hatred to seriously damage itself for centuries. This would be the final blow.
If you cannot see that, then you might as well throw in the towel and buy yourself some real estate in Alberta.
October 2nd, 2006 at 11:59 pmI stumbled on this website by following a comment from Gates of Vienna. I was surprised to find this comment thread!
There is clearly a significant strand of anti-semitism in Europe. Less in the UK, least (?) in Denmark. It’s not the majority! It IS highly correlated with left-wing views (nowadays and more in the past than you might think).
October 3rd, 2006 at 9:16 pmZerosumgame makes a terrible mistake in leaping from “some” to “all”.
More to the point, Archonix’ original post had a point. Mainland Europeans do tend to trust the state in some weird way.
The British attitude is simpler: until about 20 years ago we trusted the bureaucrats to honestly and impartially enforce the laws. So everything was “fair”.
I too, stumbled here by way of GoV. I agree with your post 7.10.06 where you say, “Things are changing already around here” (Britain) I am a pessimist by nature (not nice these days) but even so I see a brighter side. I just think back to last May, before Barking and Dagenham - (B&D) Local elections, there was no sign what-ever of a chink or crack in the iron grip of the elite and media. Then came the watershed bombshell of Margaret Hodge and the threat of the BNP.
To cut a long story short, since then, the mass immigration-multicultural-political correctness time bomb has exploded. When history is written, it will be said that D&B was indeed a defining moment. Since that time, slowly and surely, the drip, drip, welling of discontent and resentment from below the conscience of the people, has become more and more, even I, can sense the menace that is to come.
In other words, all of the above has taken place in a few short months.
The illusion of political choice and direction in our governing system has a played a major part in where we are at to-day, worse, it is the role of the MSM that has enabled this project to go unchallenged, the arrogance of the BBC has been breath-taking, even so, there are signs that this arrogance has been pricked, and as with the government, they are inviting dialogue with the people. Imo, this multicultural programme (laboratory experiment) could not have been maintained without the tacit enthusiastic support of the MSM.
I also notice this last few days, that further incidence of violence is taking place in France, not cars this time, the target is the police themselves. strangely, there is not a word from our MSM. I wonder when the time comes, will the dominoe effect come into play.
So to the pessimists I say, yes, there will be setbacks, but there is a momentum out there that is lumbering into conscientiousness and imo, from now on, is inalterable.
October 8th, 2006 at 8:04 pmzerosumgame is almost as bad as his Antisemitic foes, thinking that the world revolves around the Jews.
You cannot hope to defeat the Islamofascists if you will not face up to the Jew-hatred of your NON-ISLAMIC fellow Europeans.
Actually I think the two are relatively unrelated.
What is unfortunate here is that I might agree with much of what he says, if he were not so strident in denouncing the whole of Europe. I hate, PC, I hate the EU, I hate big state government and I believe in equality before the law. In these terms, European Countries have much to be criticised for, but they are far from a monolithic homogenous mass, as are the peoples of Europe.
October 11th, 2006 at 1:21 pmZero is the worst enemy Judaism could possibly have. Every time he opens his mouth he creates another anti-Semite.
He has no real argument beyond the oft-trotted “everybody hates me because I’m a Jew” meme, and little realizes that people don’t like him because he’s a jerk, not because he’s a Jew. The trouble is that many people, himself looming large among them, are unable to seperate the concept “Zero is a Jew” and “Zero is a jerk”, and so arrive at the conclusion from listening to him, that Jews are jerks.
He seems unable to grasp the concept that if he keeps pointing at his innocent neighbour and yowling for him to “stop hitting me”, sooner or later the neighbour is going to get pissed off and START hitting him.
October 16th, 2006 at 5:04 pm“Zero is the worst enemy Judaism could possibly have. Every time he opens his mouth he creates another anti-Semite.
He has no real argument beyond the oft-trotted “everybody hates me because I’m a Jew” meme, and little realizes that people don’t like him because he’s a jerk, not because he’s a Jew. The trouble is that many people, himself looming large among them, are unable to seperate the concept “Zero is a Jew” and “Zero is a jerk”, and so arrive at the conclusion from listening to him, that Jews are jerks.
He seems unable to grasp the concept that if he keeps pointing at his innocent neighbour and yowling for him to “stop hitting me”, sooner or later the neighbour is going to get pissed off and START hitting him. ”
Oh my, my…where to begin…..
I guess you Europeans, even when you claim to like Jews, just like us Jews to be quiet and just say “Yes, Mastuh” when you want to bash our skulls in, blow us up, or throw us in ovens. We are OK so long as you want us to live; but the thought that after half of us were wiped out by you Euros that we actually defend ourselves is something that you Euros will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever accept.
ScottSA — I spit on you. Somebody who thinks the Jews have no right to even point out the Jew-hatred, let alone defend themselves from it, is about as much a friend of the Jews as Narallah, Haniyeh, Chirac, or Jack Straw.
October 17th, 2006 at 11:41 pmZero:
I’m not a European, I’m a Canadian. Yeah, the people who hate Jews almost as much as the Nazis…oh wait, those are the Australians. I dangle that “I support Israel” shingle out on my blog as a trap for unsuspecting Jews who might wander by and be misled into entering, whereby I leap from the corner of the blog and accuse them of hording money, plotting 911 and ruling the world!
There is nothing wrong with pointing out that diasporadic Jews have historically suffered disproportionate hatred. But you don’t point it out, you bellow it from the rooftops. You yowl and moan and bray like a wounded bull at everything that moves. You snarl accusations at allies and enemies alike. One would think from listening to your singleminded ululations that Jews are even now being escorted to the ovens in Europe. You are an idiot.
Spit on me if you will, and I’ll shit on you. Tomorrow I’ll wipe off the spit, but you’ll still be a shithead.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:39 am